Jun 242015
 

Railing Against the Forums

[edit] one thing that has become very clear since I originally posted this is that Hammertop does not think the edited version of his comment actually states his case.

I am a bit confused by this as I didn’t change his words (although I removed many) and felt that my summaries of the removed portions were accurate. I still feel that way.

But nonetheless, I don’t have to understand why Hammertop disagrees with my version of his comment, it is so regardless, even if he hasn’t attempted to explain which parts or why.

So when you read this, bear that in mind.

[edit again – a busy day today indeed] Hammertop appears to be a Vaultie named Factor. Playing a very long con troll. My apologies for unintentionally giving him/her(?) a soapboax.

Last week, while discussing all of the many resources and websites available to the DDO player, I touched on Turbine’s DDO forums as well as the “alternate” forum, the not-in-any-way-Turbine endorsed DDO Vault. It is a topic that seems to draw an emotional response: the people who love the forums really love them, and even more so for those who love the Vault.

The topic is still drawing comments, including a very long and seemingly heartfelt missive from one of the DDO forum’s most long and seemingly heartfelt posters, Hammertop, who turns out to be named Darren. Hi Darren! And thank you for the time you spent writing all that!

Some of Darren’s comment violated my sense of what is appropriate for this site in that it contained a sustained series of personal attacks. I’ve edited Darren’s post, lightly but thoroughly, in the effort to present his topic fully but without the personal attack. Editing is marked with square brackets []. Hopefully the editing will not be detractive, but either way it had to be done: I encourage opinions of all kinds, even those that vehemently disagree with me. But you need to stop short of personal attacks, I will remove those every time.

Enough with the chatter. Let’s see what Hammertop had to say:

Geoff,  It’s terribly disappointing to read that wrote such a slanted article regarding 3rd party forums, a wasted opportunity.

[Darren feels that Turbine’s moderation encourages favoritism on the DDO forums]

Nearly free reign has been given to several very high profile posters on the DDO forums, and these individuals will preemptively attack and belittle any new players or posters who ask questions in good faith.

[Darren goes on to describe how there is a clique of people who are blindingly pro-Turbine and stifle other viewpoints]

[Darren feels that there may even be an intent by Turbine to encourage this cliquishness]

Now before you try to discount me as someone who was banned and just has sour grapes, I’m not. I have been playing for 4 years, and only began posting on the forums in the past few months, and I am still “not banned” but not for lack of trying.

My forum name is Hammertop,  I’m right there on the forums, and I have been subjected to over 180 ToS breaking attacks/trolls/insults in just the past month. While I have been active I have had to spend more and more time trying to craft my posts so carefully just to avoid a infraction but at the same time refusing to [be silenced]. The correspondence I have had to compile and constantly refer to with Turbine to avoid a ban is enormous and ridiculous, scratch that, it’s absurd. I have had to endure the kind of abuse that has seen scores of my new guildmates, and Khyber players just toss the game and leave.

It’s a vicious cycle, start playing the game, fall in love, want to know more, start researching, begin mastering content, look forward to updates, look for updates, then post questions about content and updates, be ridiculed for start date, try to ask more questions, be ridiculed for post count, defend you questions, be accused of being a sock, defend and invite Turbine to vet account, be trolled, become exasperated and post, be infracted, become more exasperated, Be trolled by the same 5-6 posters over multiple threads, waste time reporting dozens of posts for harassment, get trolled even  harder by the very posters you reported for abuse, try to defend yourself calmly, be called passive aggressive and holier than thou, watch your mates get even more abuse, see them baited, see them banned, [edited], defend yourself, get trolled, get infracted, and eventually give up.

You have to put up with all that, just to support a game you have found and fallen in love with, all that abuse because you are new, all that abuse because you don’t agree with the attack dogs.

None of this is a secret, it is acted out daily week after week and it drives new players and posters like me and my friends away again and again. But you didn’t even mention it, not one word, instead you attacked the vault and [Darren here mentioned his disappointment that the article did not label Turbine moderation policy in a manner that agrees with his experience and opinion].

Well for the record, the vault is a pack of juvenile half-wits more interested in cheating than actually playing the game, I find very little useful information there, and most time spent there is wasted trying to figure out all the stupid inside jokes. But as obnoxious as they are you miss the point, they are powerless, all they can do is make noise in their tiny little sandbox, a sandbox easily avoided.

[Here Darren defends the way that the Vault population makes constant personal attacks versus Turbine employees]

[Here he makes an ironic statement about the effectiveness of those personal attacks]

Anyone objective, who took a few hours to read the DDO forums in a detached manner can see that, and when it was time for you to write this article you should have done that. Instead you produced some puff piece that [Darren continues to express his displeasure with the state of the DDO forums and Turbine policy]. You ignore the alienation of the new players and posters.

Who do you want to help? the game or your apparent friend Cordovan?

In closing I have avoided using other posters name here to avoid giving you a excuse to delete my comments, or engage in the type of public shaming I and my friends have been subjected to on the forums.

But if you would like to have them. or if you are thinking about trying to dismiss my facts and experience [with Turbine moderation policy], let me assure you that I have all the names, the incidents, archived versions of removed threads, and the extensive and surreal correspondence I have had to have with Turbine since I began posting just a few months ago.

Being able to have access to Turbine and report and support the game as you do is not just a privilege, it is also a responsibility, a responsibility to the game and it’s community. And right now the community and the game are in danger, danger of chasing away all the new players and posters who will replace the players who eventually leave, we are the future of the game, we will be the ones who pay for content and fill pug LFM’s.

[Darren references the cliquishness of some on the forums combined with Turbine moderation] run the risk of chasing us off and strangling the game if they continue as they have. So now you have to choose whether you will help them do that, or really be a fan of the game instead.

Whew, that is a lot!

I continue to be amazed that so many people subscribe to a theory that Turbine, or a specific Turbine employee, or some combination of the above, is out to get them, or executing some kind of hidden agenda, or for sure doing something sinister even if no one is certain exactly what.

Let’s fact-check some things here, and see if I can add some bullet points of common sense to this thorny topic.

  • Fact: Everyone at Turbine is very busy. The kind of detailed moderation you want is very time-consuming; it took me an hour to properly edit this one post! If I was facing a thread full of dozens of such posts it would take all day. No way Jose.
  • Fact: Everyone at Turbine is in favor of players, and especially, having as many as possible. In other words, they like paychecks.
  • Fact: The forums are not a court of law: skirting the rules and playing rules-lawyer with the terms of service is not going to result in a win.
  • Fact: In that vein, there is no “win” in the forums in any case. Does it matter if six people all post in your thread that they disagree with you? Does the world improve if you find a way to get them infracted? No.
  • Fact: The forums are a Turbine PR activity. Even something that is perfectly crafted and perfectly within the ToS is going to attract moderator agro if it flies in the face of their PR efforts.
  • Fact: You have mistaken DDOGamer for a site of privilege and responsibility, rather than one of useless inanity and drivel. Someone needs to introduce you to the tripe vendor.
  • Opinion: No one has said anything like this to me or inferred it, or even hinted, but if I was moderating and I had to choose between people that were being nice to me and people that were being unpleasant, it would hard to avoid an accidental bias towards the nice ones

Less bullet pointy but still true, all of us have made mistakes. One of your comments that I had to edit mentioned the “tin-foil hat crowd” comment that Cordovan once made on a Twitch broadcast, and I agree that was a poorly-chosen statement. I would also mention the tone-deafness that Cordovan and Tolero projected over the Wayfinder bridge protest while on DDOCast that week.

Okay. Two mistakes. I’m sure there are more. On the other hand, I am also sure that there are more than two mistakes in this article. And in your comment.

I am running out of time for today which is a shame, I still have a lot to say. So I will summarize by saying that you and I are not as far apart as it may seem to you, although we differ greatly in presentation. As evidence, I would like to include a quote from the original DDOGamer article:

But it is not all unicorns and rainbows. The forums are not a free-speech zone; they are a corporate PR activity, and are kept scrubbed of detritus that detracts from the corporate message. There are topics that one cannot even mention without undergoing some form of discipline. For instance, the DDO Vault, which we will discuss in a moment.

A bigger issue with the forums is the way that opinions coalesce into groupthink and stifle many forms of input. Every internet posting site attracts people who rage about anything with which they disagree, and the forums are no exception. Many issues attract one cluster in favor and/or another in opposition, and it is common for posts to be drowned out by the back and forth of the various cliques and factions, to the point where the original post becomes irrelevant. Even developer posts which are intended to gather original ideas and input.

Also, as I pointed out in one of the comments on that article, I too am in favor of changing forum moderation. I favor open moderation, with everything right out there in public for all to see. In fact I’ve written about this, more than once. Hidden moderation encourages speculation and conspiracy theories. Public moderation has drawbacks too but at least everyone really knows what is going on, and to whom.

Thank you again Hammertop for such lengthy thought-through input, and for giving me a serious topic for today’s article instead of the fluffy polls I was going to inflict on everyone to get input on my latest character build.

Just for the record, it took me two hours to moderate and properly respond to this one comment, and even that wasn’t really enough, I had to cut myself short. Still, two hours! That means something, in and of itself.

Right?

🙂 😀 🙂

  65 Responses to “Railing Against the Forums: Hammertop States His Case”

Comments (65)
  1. I can say that before I was on the players council, I didn’t spend much time on the ddo forums at all. Why? Because of the unending bickering and seemingly bias moderation. After I was on the PC, I feel I know Cordovan a little bit better, or understand his job a little bit better… yet I don’t quite agree with how he manages the forum moderation. I believe in “strict but fair”. The same rules should apply for everyone. Just because some ppl are nicer ppl than others and some are trouble makers, shouldn’t mean that some get less moderation than others. I have seen ppl get away with breaking the rules. I have had friends get permanently banned for breaking the rules once. I understand that Jerry is highly stressed and over worked, but I would still wish that he was strict and fair, not strict with some and soft with some (he has said forum moderation is a per case basis).

    It is a battle we cannot win, so I’ve given up. I feel there is really no point in trying to get things to change on the ddo forums. There isn’t any point in trying to argue with ppl, we can either bend or go home.

  2. Thanks Geoff, for this “follow up” article.

  3. Geoff I’m am going to have to repost my original comment here, so others can see how you minimize and mitigate what I was trying to say. As I posted originally I have the name, threads, PM’s to back all this up, I suppose that now I will need to find a unbiased site to post them if you try to put words in my mouth for me again. Please don’t do that, I did not post anything over the line or that isn’t truly reflective of [edit] the DDO forums.

    Here is the original post folks, please read and compare to what Geoff has tried to pass it off as above, you can easily see Geoff’s agenda and how he is being misleading.

    /start/

    [Edited by Geoff, deleted the whole post from here on, it was a repost of Darren’s original comment including the personal attacks I removed once already and now a personal comment from Geoff]:

    Dude I don’t know how to be clearer about this but you are not posting personal attacks on anyone at my site.

    I’m sorry you are unhappy with my edits; I gave a significant good faith effort to represent your views and remove only the attacks.

    I encourage you to rewrite your post yourself if you do not trust me to do it. Write something without personal attacks and I will leave it alone. [End of edit]

  4. I have to admit, mostly I lurk the forums if I am on them at all. I have requested build advice, but that was in a kinder, gentler day and age… I just took a look at the DDO Vault forums. Whew! Kind of like sifting through the muck at the bottom of the sewers in the Waterworks for a few copper.

    In the end I agree with the philosophy that Geoff has encouraged me with multiple times — just play to have fun! Isn’t that really what it’s about?

    Thanks Geoff!

  5. Geoff, I’m sorry but the original needs to be available now. This is because readers need to be able to compare what you did to it, and see the clear agenda that you were pushing, how you consciously misrepresented what I said specifically.

    Your edit, was misleading and sought to dismiss issues by being so.

    Here is the Original again, you need to leave it up for others to compare against what you have tried to foist upon them, if you really made a “good faith effort” this would be obvious to you. Sadly it was just a attempt to silence me and slant my view in a way that would make it easy for others to dismiss it.

    Have some integrity and leave it up so that others can make their own conclusions. If you don’t have the common decency to do that? you had best pull my comments entirely, especially your “massaged” versions of them, because what you presented was not my comment or position, it was a attack on me and my thoughts under the guise of editing.

    So post it all Geoff or pull it ALL, no half-way, when you decided to try and put words in someone else’s mouth you lost that option of doing that and maintaining any credibility. So remember: All of it, or none of it.

    /start/
    [Edit by Geoff again]

    I find your repetitive attempts to contravene my decision on this to be rather irritating.

    I think I am being very clear about this. Say whatever you need to say, but do it without including personal attacks.

    [end of edit]

  6. As with 1halfelf, I also mostly just lurk both on the official forums and the Vault. Both forums have their merits, as long as your expectations are not unrealistic. The Vault has some really good character build information and threads, but as has been previously mentioned, a thick skin is needed if you plan on making your own posts and it is often nsfw.

  7. Geoff, I think I have been very clear, if you are not going to use the “actual comment” that I made, you cannot post a your misrepresentation of it.

    You dishonestly edited it, to slant the content and my position and attempted to hide it under a “happy talk” style comments. If you had made those edits in “good faith” you would understand my point here. And if you had made them in “good faith” you would be willing to let others compare both versions. And finally if you had made those edits in “good faith” but felt my content wasn’t acceptable, you would remove all of it in it’s entirety, rather than leave any objectionable content OR what I have pointed out is biased editing.

    By continuing to remove my original comment but leaving up your “version” of my comment, it becomes clear that you are in fact just using your slanted and dishonest version of my comment as a vehicle to push a agenda of your own. Well guess what Geoff? if you want to push your agenda you need to use your own words and make it clear they are your words, not hide behind the edited and warped versions of other people’s names and comments.

    ALL of it, or none of it Geoff, I think I am making myself very clear here, to do anything else is a dishonest attempt to co-opt my comment for your purposes.

    All or NONE>

    /start/

    [edit]

    Deleted!

    sigh.

    [end of edit]

  8. I believe that if you can not form an argument without personal attacks then you have no argument at all. It is not a reasoned discourse it is hate pure and simple. Why I rarely visit any site because of people who seem to think it is okay to attack people cause it is just a game forum. How you act in all aspects of life reflects on your character and you. These are just games meant for entertainment and I think if everyone (I do think the majority of players do) realised this it would go a long way to making moderation less of a requirement.

  9. Geoff, as I have made clear, if you are unwilling to let your biased edit subjected to scrutiny, you have no right to post it as my words. You are being dishonest in doing so, you repeated efforts to remove my original actual comment but still keep your “twisted and untrue” version of it as content for your site is unethical and exposes you and your agenda clearly.

    You can post your edited version of my original comment only with my comment available Geoff, otherwise you need to remove my name and any pretenses that I wrote what you have edited.

    ALL or NONE Geoff, very simple, to not abide by that makes it crystal clear that you are only using my name to hide behind while you push a agenda in a dishonest fashion.

    All or NONE Geoff.

    [edit]

    Deleted!

    Double sigh.

    [end of edit]

  10. So now you are editing my comments that point out what you are doing? Here then is my last comment which Geoff has edited out along with my original comment:

    Geoff, as I have made clear, if you are unwilling to let your biased edit subjected to scrutiny, you have no right to post it as my words. You are being dishonest in doing so, you repeated efforts to remove my original actual comment but still keep your “twisted and untrue” version of it as content for your site is unethical and exposes you and your agenda clearly.

    You can post your edited version of my original comment only with my comment available Geoff, otherwise you need to remove my name and any pretenses that I wrote what you have edited.

    ALL or NONE Geoff, very simple, to not abide by that makes it crystal clear that you are only using my name to hide behind while you push a agenda in a dishonest fashion.

    All or NONE Geoff.

    /start/

    Deleted!

  11. If you are going to insist on keeping a article called “Hammertop states his case” then you actually need to have hammertop stating his case, not being twitsted and slanted by you.

    Otherwise it needs to be titled “Geoff twists and spins Hammertop’s case”.

    Understand?

    All or NONE Geoff

    • I am tempted to post a paraphrased version of this comment just to tweak you, as you have wasted a lot of my time this morning and caused me to have to edit more posts in one hour than I had previously edited in the six years that I have been running this blog.

      But whatever.

      I encourage you (again) to rewrite your original post yourself. State your arguments howsoever you want, but without personal attacks. And I will leave it alone. As I have left alone the 6,587 other comments that have been posted to this blog without requiring edits.

      • That because you didn’t see a way to edit those other comment to advance your agenda and drive traffic to your site Geoff.

        You created a entire article based on my comment and then proceeded to edit it to misrepresent the entire point of my comment Geoff. This is at best sloppy and at it’s worst dishonest use for person gain.

        ALL of it, or NONE of it Geoff, very simple.

  12. Since you are unwilling to let others see what you have done in your “good faith editing” we are going to have to end this now Geoff, you need to pull down your misrepresentation of my original comment and go write a article of your own, about those fluffy polls you mentioned. Because you cannot use only portions of my original comment and then twist and misrepresent the rest.

    If you don’t either removed your twisted version of my original comment or allow my original comment that you are attempting to monetize with a biased version exist along side of it I will take what legal remedies are available to me as the original poster and pursue them.

    Put simply you created a Article entitled “railing against the forums: Hammertop states his case” and then knowingly perverted my position with malice and forethought. You then went to other third party sites to post about your article and post a link to it, to drive traffic to this site to monetize the content.

    For those actions and reasons you have only two choices available to you now, you post it all or you post none of it. I’m not going to sit by and allow you to attempt to twist my words and misrepresent my original comment so that you can push your personal agenda and try to create traffic and money with it.

    ALL or NONE Geoff, and next time? don’t be so blatant in your biased editing, and perhaps you will get away with it.

    /start/

    [Edit]

    Deleted!

    I guess I have to start looking into how to ban someone. How unexpected.

    [end of edit]

  13. No, need to ban anyone Geoff, as you very well know.

    If you would like me to stop defending what myself from you dishonest attempts to twist and use my words, you have two choices: present what I actually said with a disclaimer for content beside your own twisted version, or don’t post my actual comment and remove your twisted version.

    Very simple Geoff.

  14. original comment by Hammertop:

    /start/

    [edit]

    Deleted!

    Sorry, no more time for this, have to get some work done.

    Happy life Hammer! Sorry to have enraged you so.
    [end of edit]

  15. I read the forums a lot. This article and the accompanying comments did not make me think any differently about this particular, specific topic. Just confirmed what I already surmised.

  16. Have i told you about the definition of madness? 🙂

    Sadly i have no idea how to embed the appropriate Vaas image.

  17. I’ll take a swipe at the trolling nature here, paraphrasing myself at a recent comment to an article I made on my blog concerning the pseudo-argument between Geoff and I awhile back about the DDO stealth mechanics.

    1) Turbine is the Dungeonmaster. Their game, their rules. If you know anything about D&D, this is the Golden Rule, and Turbine will swat you with that ruler as they deem necessary.
    2) While we all want consistency in gameplay, debate on the forums does not equal democracy. While the developers clearly listen and respond to feedback, they need data, not grousing. Saying “it’s broken” is different than filing a bug report to specifically indicate what is broken and where.
    3) Learn to be civil and do so at all times. Most of the DDO bloggers, certainly the Fansite blogs like Geoff and my own, adhere to a special level of Turbine’s rules on our own blogs. And we also have our own rules of what is and isn’t a discussion point. If you cannot distinguish what are ad hominem attacks, the bloggers’ and Turbine’s Greater Stick of Moderation will edit you without cease until you do, just as Geoff has done here.
    4) Blogs and the DDO forums are not free-speech havens, as Geoff said. Just because DDO Vault is an unmoderated cave of trolling doesn’t mean others will tolerate such behavior elsewhere. It may have an unofficial place for DDO players, but it’s banned from discussion on the official forums, unlike other DDO blog and fansites, because it’s a cave of trolls with some members explaining exploitative behavior that hurts Turbine’s revenue and thus, players who don’t cheat.
    5) Did I mention that you can’t rant and swear and call people names, ever?

  18. As someone who has occasionally had to moderate comments I deem to be inappropriate i have a few things to point out.

    1) geoff was extremely generous in his moderation. I don’t have time for such things. Period. I dont edit, I delete. I also draw a hard line on personal attacks – and I have a lot of experience with adjudging that line.

    2) while you may disagree with moderation, blatantly and repeatedly ignoring the reason for the moderation will get you no where. Consider why there was moderation in the first place and consider trying to say what you have to say within that framework.

    3) comments/forums are not entitled to free speech. You dont get to say whatever you want on them. There are rules and if you dont play by them you MAY (yes may, sometimes you get away with it, sometimes you get grace) find your thoughts are no longer where you put them.

    4) its a dangerous thing to presume intent. You may think that someone has twisted your words in a dishonest way, but often times its a misunderstanding and someone gets upset and unreasonable which leads to more upset and unreasonable people. The opinion that your words were twisted and misrepresented could be correct, but that doesn’t mean that the attempt wasn’t in good faith.

    5) sometimes winning means walking away.

  19. The Un moderated version of the post is available to read on line. I read it and fail to see the personal attacks.. Perhaps because no names are mentioned.. Except Cordovans. I have not done a side by side comparison of Hammertops Original and your edited version But was the intent to remove any reference to cordovan even if indirect? Like “Cordovans attack dogs”?

  20. Geoff, trolls are weak to flame attacks it’s perfectly understandable how with limited communication skills he is unable to articulate his opinion in an acceptable manner other than by flame attack. Oh, dang that was a flame attack, sorry

  21. I’d love to know why Hammertop received a multi-website + game ban… but maybe that’s just me.

    • Just to be sure, I double-checked the forum status of the person claiming to have been banned both in-game and on the forums. They are not banned on the forums at all. I can’t check on an in-game ban without a request to CS, but if they were banned in-game they’d be banned from the forums, and they aren’t banned from the forums…

      If the person in question wishes to post in compliance with the Community Guidelines, there should be no impediment past or present preventing them from doing so.

      • Sadly, I wish I knew who to trust Jerry. Hammertop made some good points in his posts, and called out a few things that seem to be widely known to the forum users. There really do seem to be a protected cabal of Main Forum users. Also, I’ve had my fair share of what I perceive to be inconsistent moderation over my 10 years with the game.

        So, when he claimed to be both in-game and Main Forum banned, along with banned here, it rang true. I know other forum-folk backed up that claim by looking into Hammertop’s Rep… and his appeared to be wiped out, and his posts no longer Repp-able. After reading your post, I likewise looked into it, and his Rep seems to just be disabled, but I could give him Rep if I wanted to. Thereby backing up your claim he isn’t banned.

        Was he banned for a time today, and then it was rescinded? Maybe. I don’t know, and am not asking. Just that the whole situation seems to be very fishy, to the point of backing up a lot of what Hammertop was “railing” against.

        There is a healthy dose of disingenuous here, Jerry. I won’t claim to know who it’s coming from, or why. I only claim to be saddened by it. The very fact that I cannot nail down that feeling is making it all the worse.

        However, thank you for taking the time to address my post. Please know that it does mean a lot.

        • Ultimately, it’s up to folks to decide for themselves. I took no moderation action this morning on ANYONE, and as far as I can tell there is no in-game ban. I would not want to make any assumption or statement in regard to why someone would claim to be banned. While ultimately it’s my word only, I took no action against this person’s or any other person’s account this morning.

          (Well, I did close Geoff’s thread on the DDO forums, so I guess that counts.)

          • OH, let’s call it what it is, Jerry… if they falsely claimed to be banned, it was for the attention and the trouble-brewing. And, if that is the case, it worked. And it was well timed and targeted, because it plays on a lot of hidden bad blood on the Main Forums.

            There is distrust of the moderation team, and there has been for a long time.

            There are feelings that the moderation team plays favorites, and there have been for a long time (H4X0Rific being just one).

            There are feelings that Infractions and Bans are handed out capriciously , and there have been for a long time.

            On the other hand, it has been pointed out that earlier in the day, Hammertop’s Main Forum account had all the hallmarks of being banned. And that was verified by others, not just HT. This was not the case when I looked into it, but I have trouble dismissing the other folks who looked into before I did.

            I know you cannot respond to any of this, Jerry. I don’t expect you to, at all. I just wanted to complete my train of thought. I do thank you again for responding to my posts. You are right when you say that it’s up to the individual to decide for themselves… I just wish I had enough faith in any side to know where I lean.

  22. I saw the original post/thread on the forums and (the OP) slowly revealed his true colors. The comments made in here further reveal why he received negative commentary (and possibly some infraction).

    As far as any legal recourse, well one might want to research “public domain” before one wastes any time on lawyers or such. lol

    Geoff you have a lot of patience, I will say that much. 🙂

  23. now even the quagmire forum (YES I still have my primary account there and still only lurk from strawberry moon to strawberry moon) wants to ban him. Which is almost as funny and hypocritical as the site that purports to support open moderation and no banning – banning someone…..

    Interesting and lively topic.

    One cannot change the game, the game changes you if you try. One can only gently nudge and influence the game. The primary point of playing the game is to have fun; when the game ceases to be fun, it is time for a break. Come back and have fun at a later day.

    Hopefully Hammertop has a brief cooling period, and comes back to have fun.

    • Hey uurlock, your ban on the Vault was temporary, put in place to prevent you from posting endless newline-only posts that were causing server performance issues. Once I cleaned up your mess, your access was restored.

      You’d be hard-pressed to find any other website that would let you back in after you were caught intentionally causing harm to it.

  24. Hammertop appears to be a Vaultie named Factor. Playing a very long con troll. My apologies for unintentionally giving him/her(?) a soapboax.

    • [Edited by Geoff] Uurlock has low expectations regarding posts from people who belong to the DDOVault [End Edit]

    • I believe this person has multiple socks on vault and DDO. Crane mace being one of them. It seems that there are other people involved too. Indicating a vault based revenge scheme. “Darren” seems to be the leader though. All of this is conjecture. A less likely alternative is you are involved in seemingly a pointless conspiracy with DDO to manipulate forum readers.

  25. And I thought my post on the 20th was Awkward. (Disingenuous naïveté aside; AWkWard!) apparently there is at least one person who will post on someone’s “private” sight before actually reading AND accepting his specific caveats. I know I’m not the only one and to be honest, I really felt that my own comment suggesting that “someone grow a pair” in the Spider Wasp post came dangerously close to crossing “our” line of conduct. Oh Geoff? I still can’t read the punchline on the picture 😉

  26. Hi Geoff,

    I am not your regular reader but I hopped in couple times in the past when I had spare time. I always enjoyed your posts and graphics because they were somehow warming. However this really left sour taste in my mouth.This post was really uncalled for especially put the way you did. Any kind of editing (either it’s in the print medias or audiovisual medias) is a very very powerful tool. You can completly change the nature of affaires and hand your view and of course your agenda to your audience. And generally speaking those who do not know the discussed theme deeply (and that is often the majority of audience) will simply accept your point of view and your opinions as a fact.

    If this post have been made in a good faith, it would be taken down by now as it obviously harmed the original author. I am really sorry I have to say this but this is the exact same type of toxic behaviour that is going on everyday on the official forums. Nothing but baiting. And I did not expect this coming from you.

    Take care.

    • Sock? Very possibly. Almost over-polite yet militantly siding with HT.

      • Thanks for proving my point. You can find me on forums and in game under the same name. But I must be sure sock for militantly siding with Hammertop.

        • Hmmm, now it is a day later and if we sprinkle in the “IP revelation” that Hammertop IS a sock, it might be argued that you are not a sock; socks simply tolerate other socks. You could however be a foot because feet like socks and feet march to the beat of a difficult drummer and since you are militantly siding with a sock I put forward that you might be a foot. Oops, I think I just saw Fred perk up at my use of the singular… (This is meant to be a lame attempt at showing how a little imagination can be inserted for the usual trolling routine of the Tit4Tat a tatatat…).

  27. It would seem I’m no longer “half” the population anymore (hehehe).
    😉

  28. Geoff is not an honest broker. Editing and deleting comments is a sure sign that the truth hurts.

  29. Glad you’re getting off on editing and deleting comments Geoff. Also nice how you and Jerry got together and got Hammertime banned FROM THE GAME!!!! Class act….

    [Edit by Geoff] please discontinue spamming the same message over and over. I get your point. 19 times is plenty. [End Edit]

  30. [Edited by Geoff] Jack feels that the DDO forum moderation is not fair and equal [End edit]

  31. Geoff – it looks like you angered one or two people from that other place and all their socks. 🙂

    • As well as some of us that aren’t from “that other place” (my username is the same on the Mother Forums as the one I am using here) and think that:

      a) editing posts with a subjective “editor’s comment” (as opposed to deleting or simple redacting of sections with no subjective commentary) is poor form; and
      b) this entire blog post was extremely baiting in nature, and aimed towards a single person (whether a sock or not).

      I quite enjoy reading Geoff’s posts, but this one stands out from the others, and not for good reasons.

      • Everyone is a sock because we disagree with Geoff? This is the same kind of bullshit that goes on on the Motherboard. We either agree with people like you and Cordovan or we are socks that needs to be eliminated? Ridicolous.

        What Geoff is doing is unacceptable. Any kind of editing done to the original post with a subjective comment is not only poor form as Chi righfully states, it also completely changes the message.

        And after editing 19 times replies with the original content, Geoff STILL hasn’t published the Original content with no edits.

        • That’s because it would violate the DDO Forum rules, Wizza. In order to be listed as an approved DDO Fansite, the content of your site must also conform to the DDO Forum rules.

          If Geoff didn’t edit “offending” posts, his site would be “de-listed” as an approved DDO Fansite.

          • I am unaware of such a restraint. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, maybe it does, I don’t have time to look it up. The only thing I remember from the fansite rules is that I have to display the DDO logo and have a link to the game site.

            On the (very rare) occasion that I have to edit a post (which had happened only twice ever before yesterday), I do it because it violates what I am willing to allow on my site.

            Guidelines, such as they are, can be found here. http://www.gamergeoff.com/everyone-can-post-here-even-if-we-disagree-but-read-the-small-print/

  32. The requested resource could not be loaded because the server belonging to the target website returned an error:
    409 Conflict (?). If you want to contact us about this problem, please copy + paste the full error message and tell us which server location you are using (look in the address bar at the top for fr.proxfree.com, tx.proxfree.com etc). Email: contact@proxfree.com Return to home page.

  33. Holy Forum Madness, Geoffman!

    TLDR [yet].

    As far as I can tell, the majority of forums are more or less the same, with the same (or similar) cast of characters 😀

  34. Geoff, may I ask. Did Hammertop send you his post, asking you top publicise it? If so, would it not have been more fair to ask him to edit it himself, before posting anything? I believe you did what you thought was right, but seeing as Hammer really did not want his post edited, would it not have been better to cut this post and just cut the drama right there?

  35. Interesting image of a Hammer you used there. Do you have permission from Stanley Tools to use that image?

    “Sites cannot contain any copyrighted material (code, images, text or otherwise) without express permission from the original source. However, DDO assets which have been previously published, publicly distributed or released by Turbine may be used in site creation and content.”

  36. Good morning world, and happiness to one and all. I’m leaving this article open for comment because it is (remotely, very remotely) possible that someone will add something of value.

    Just to be clear though, no place on DDOGamer is an okay place to post personal attacks. Not even this thread. I encourage the discussion, even the dissent, but I draw the line at personal attacks. If you post them, expect edits, deletions, and the like.

    The rules, such as they are, can be found here.

  37. Your a regualr little Cartman there with the editing other peoples comment geoff!

    • You are free to post here as often as you like, whatever you like, but when you break the (few) rules that apply here, you’ll get edited/deleted. Openly, transparently, but still, edited/deleted.

      Just curious, how would you prefer that I handledyour post? Just delete it? Isn’t that what you all find so objectionable on the main forum?

      Do you even know what you really want?

  38. Geoffhanna, thank you for all you’ve contributed to the DDO community. You and Syn are my two favorite places to get an unbelievable amount of DDO information. Either one of you produce more solid DDO information/content than the vault could EVER DREAM OF. [Edit by Geoff] here LeslieWest expresses a dislike of the people on the Vault [end edit] the Vault produces ZERO benefit to the DDO community at large.

    This whole Hammertop PR stunt was planned by the vault, to provide publicity for itself, entertainment for the morons who support it, and to do whatever damage it could to the ones DOING THE WORK for the DDO community the (far) greater majority of the playerbase enjoy.

    As a moderator myself for many years on a host of websites, I will say Cordovan is one of the best Ive seen. He and Tolero have been almost solely responsible for the upkeep of one of the greatest gaming community forums in the past 10 or so years. Cordovan KNOWS what he’d doing.

    Geoff and Cordovan, from this side of the monitor I think this PR stunt needs to come to an end, and personally I’d like to see some bodies. You both have been MORE than kind. Way more than I would have been for certain.

    Vaulties coming here perpetuating this malarkey just want more publicity for themselves and wish to embarrass anyone in their path. I haven’t read a genuine word from ONE of them yet.

    Patrick is correct. All this crap needs to be straight up DELETED. There is no democracy on forums. There’s a CODE OF CONDUCT that is written, edited, and served by Turbine employees. It does not belong to the vault, to me or ANYONE else. It belongs to THEM. Period. If you don’t like it or cannot respect the rules, act like a decent human being, grow a set or DO NOT USE THE FORUMS.

    • [Edit by Geoff] here Arkat launches a personal attack and expresses his displeasure at LeslieWest’s post. [end edit]

      • [Edit by Geoff] Here LeslieWest engages in a personal attack [end edit] So besides stirring up drama on the vault, and grieving folks much more productive to the community than yourself, is there anything else you are doing here?

    • Thank you for the kind words and the support Leslie! However, please refrain from personal attacks. Thanks!

  39. How does it feel Geoff to be held prisoner on your own website because you’re afraid of what the DDO Community Moderation Team might do?

  40. Hm, I must say that I like your way of editing (although its a bit sad its needed) Geoff!

    Actually I think you have been able to use the troll post to show how the more open way of dealing with things works, because it nicely shows up people who just don’t, can’t or won’t learn and behave more civilized.
    Somehow it made reading this a fun experience with some people helping turn the joke on themselves! Kudos for that.

What do you think?

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